Something must be done already

At least I expected an answer, but sometimes silences and actions say more than words. In this message from 2 years ago,

https://www.cgtrader.com/forum/selling-buying-3d-models/grand-theft-models

at least there were responses of indignation and good words from who can and should expel cheaters, (for the good of all). Now the cheaters have multiplied and do not bother to hide it, but nobody says anything anymore. There is not even in the products, the button to report infractions. So here I leave it:

In case it was not clear with the watermarks of the images, some examples of models of this user, identical to those of other users, (from here, without going any further).

bluebird and indoor

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/panorama-360-nordic-style-living-room-dining-room-20

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/house/modern-concise-style-living-dining-room

indoor and ue4model

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/panorama-modern-style-family-bedroom-space-09

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/bedroom/large-bedroom-with-a-painting

other

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/panorama-360-nordic-style-living-room-dining-room-21

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/living-room-with-grey-carpet

bluebird and uemodel (4 in 1)

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/house/european-style-interior

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/brown-leather-style-living-room

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/luxury-living-room-with-green-floor

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/luxury-white-and-gold-living-room

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/antique-luxury-living-room

other:

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/house/american-style-bedroom-9081907d-63ec-4d0f-8bb8-c32f2eae57f3

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/prestigious-bedroom-with-a-big-bed

and other

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/house/european-style-bedroom

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/bedroom/luxurious-bedroom-01923125-2e0b-4d88-ad14-c99381f067b7

bluebird indoor and ue4model

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/panorama-360-neo-classical-style-living-room-restaurant-03

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/luxury-white-living-room-8d34e433-276e-4e8d-9b3b-7d3bb5a167c0

the third model here (the others also indoor)

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/house/neo-classical-style-living-room

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/large-expensive-living-room

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/luxury-large-living-room

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/interior/living-room/large-living-room-with-a-piano

And many others.

That's why you can publish so many models / day and sell at such low prices, but of course nobody cares ... I understand why some good designers have been forced to enter the game, especially those with bills to pay, because if the price of the product falls, you have to increase the production to maintain the income and unless you are superman make a good model takes time.

Actually, it is clear that nobody cares. But even if it does not matter it is important, because of the seriousness of the consequences it may have.

Hi there,

Thank you for bringing this to light.
We will review possibly infringing products and user accounts as soon as possible - appropriate actions will be taken in case of a violation of CGTrader's terms of use.

Best regards,
Mantas
CGT Support

His words sound empty, but thanks for answering. If the rules were met, I would be satisfied

"Dirty play" ? Sounds funny from someone who have 11 buer ratings done by the same person on 12...

If that worries you, CGT will be able to inform you that those purchases and those comments have not been made by me, but even if it had done so, it is not illegal nor does it violate any rule.

I will not argue with you. But this post was to try to solve a problem that I think is serious and that affects us all. In any other professional sector (doctors, actors, plumbers ...) join to obtain improvements in their work environment and defend their rights. Here the messenger is killed. I already knew that I was not going to make friends, especially among cheaters (and I do not say that for you), but I hoped that together we could make the future hopeful. Now I see that nobody really cares. It is a pity.

Thanks for understanding. In the link that I posted at the beginning, from a message from the forum 2 years ago, dealing with this topic, there was more participation from the vendors and some ideas were proposed. It would be a good starting point because since then it does not seem to have improved anything, quite the contrary. There was also more commitment on the part of CGT and more diligence when checking and resolving the reports of infractions. I think we should all get more involved and look for solutions. I find it worrying that it takes 3 years to detect a cheater, something we are doing wrong.

@acera17, i think cgtrader is well aware about those chinese pirates. I remember, couple years ago turbosquid was even collecting evidence about those sellers (bluebird was among them) and bragging about that in their forums... not much has changed since then.

@Tecna, i think there's few reasons why there's so little attention to your concerns. First of all, this forum is so retarded that barely few people still visits it. Largely, your post went unnoticed. But bigger problem is that many seller had realised, that this war on piracy is hopeless and stopped wasting their time and energy in fighting them.

Anyway, cgtrader and turbosquid at least reacting to reports (to some extent) and removing malicious accounts. Hats off to that for them. Now go to sketchfab and try to report stolen content - they just laugh in to your face, even if you provide solid evidence of theft...

Thanks for answering. You're right, the forum is dead. If this continues, the good designers, if they are smart, will look for another way of life, because, what is the use of working so hard in a model, if the day after publishing it is already in several pirate websites? or if you have to put your models prices of laughter, to try to compete ?. Not to mention the prices of job offers .... I think that markets like this will soon be relics of the past, like phonographs. Everyone will go to the pirate websites as the first option, because there they will find the same models for free and the same support from the seller, because cheaters do not think they stand out for their good customer service.

I think things can be done, and they are done, although sometimes you are not almost aware of it, for example many people have stopped using sketchfab, because everyone already associates it with the theft of models, and that label will be very useful for them. It's hard to get rid of her, so her laughs may turn to tears.

I know that in CGT they do a lot of things well and really try hard, and I thank them deeply, but I think they do not deal with this issue with the importance it has, not only for the buyers and sellers, but also for themselves. I do not want it to ring with ears, but it can not take years to detect a cheater and weeks to resolve. Especially if there are signs of crime and money in between, in addition to possible new buyers who will be the hardest hit, as they will lose their money and will have to spend more to buy another. And even if the buyer is ultimately responsible, a dissatisfied customer is the worst advertisement for a company. All that, attracts more cheaters, thins the environment and is very very harmful. For example, I have seen some half cheats (those with their own models and stolen models) that sell in different markets, in some markets they only sell their models, but here they also sell the stolen ones. To me that seems very worrying.

I know that sometimes we eat, that we are all very busy, but it has been 2 years since the message quoted above, and no progress has been made, on the contrary every time the problem is more serious. and there are fewer means to avoid it. So please, let's reconsider and let's all make an effort, because yes there are things that can be done.

PD the bluebird models and the other users seem not to be in TS

there is a simple way to conterattack those thiefs... buy their stolen models and sell them 50% lower price... if anybody care...

You're talking about bluebird like if had already banned but he's still there, what is doing CGT staff ?
Because I can say "yes we're going to review models...etc" that won't change anything, Tecna provided evidences they have to look at it.

@LemonadeCG indeed and they're usually quite quick when it comes to ban stealers, I don't understand why they're not banning bluebird.

@CGPitbull I would never thought you saying this, but if you think to conterattack those thiefs you don't even need to buy their models, because those models are free on other platforms you just need to download them and put them back.
(Warning I don't say that's a solution of course, and moreover you would get your account banned because the thief uploaded the stolen model before you tho so that's a bad idea)

@Tecna I agree with all your comment, just I think stealers couldn't get customer service from seller if they pirated the model, mostly because you need an account with a certified purchase in order to ask customer service.
If the seller see that the stealer didn't buy his model I see no reason he would help him.

Anyway only two ways to make a change : more people from CGTrader in order to clean the website or verification steps in order to prove that you're a trusted seller/the model hasn't been stole.

LemonadeCG ... a eye for a eye... well, if all those models are free models and this guy stole them and sell them, he must be crushed... if nobody do nothing the best way will be to create a account and put all those bluebird models on this account for free.. in a way or a other this guy must be crushed

Thanks for the answers, hopefully something positive comes out of here that benefits us all.

Some proposals:

1- Increase detection and control measures.

There are many signs that betray the cheats, you just have to be a little careful to notice. And in this we can all collaborate.

- Users with a large volume of published models / day (with exceptions, such as large studies or portfolio transfers from another site such as TS for example)
- Very low prices or not according to quality (here every time you notice less)
- Models without native format
- Inconsistency in software formats and versions.
- Portfolios without coherence (much difference in the topology and quality of the models)
- Models with logos or watermarks of others.
- Models without clear captures of the mesh or the UV map. Showing our meshes is a good way to protect our models.
- Models of apparent quality but with many negative comments (absence of textures, Chinese characters in the names of the objects, poor seller support ..)

Tracking these points especially in new vendors and models would help a lot to early detection. This is the part that would take more work, especially at the beginning, but once the detection mechanisms are automatized and prohibit returning to the already identified cheats, everything would flow much better.

Controlling software licenses in addition to helping to have fewer stolen models would also help regulate prices.

Something as simple as the fact that the real name was always accessible, would help a lot because it would prevent known cheaters from camouflaging themselves.

2- Improve communication channels for infractions and reduce response time

Regardless of whether CGT improves detection methods, we must also inform when we detect infringements, also the legitimate owner so that he can assert his rights. Logically you have to gather evidence to prove it, but that will facilitate and expedite the procedures (or should). It is necessary to facilitate communication, removing the button to report infractions does not help people to collaborate.

If the infraction is well documented, it should not take long to resolve. As in the previous point, the greatest effort will be at the beginning, but if the detection systems work, the number of infractions will decrease quickly.

3- Harden the sanctions

There may be a penalty period that prohibits opening a new account. This period will be higher the higher the percentage of non-original models and permanent for those who have 100%

You can seek legal advice. There are more and more laws and countries that fight against cyber crime and defend copyright and intellectual property rights. There is an agreement on cybercrime signed in Budapest in 2001 and ratified by 23 countries and surely there are users in CGT from anywhere in the world, we can take advantage of that in our favor and extend a large network to catch all the cheaters, even if they are in any part of the planet.

You can also look if it is possible to create a kind of collaboration agreement with other 3D markets that show concern about the issue. They have the personal data of all the sellers and could cross the data of confirmed cheats, so the effectiveness would be greater. The name and surnames are not usually protected by data protection laws because they are public data that can be freely accessed through guides, censuses ... again legal advice would be needed. You have to do things well.

If it were viable, it would duplicate the resources dedicated, and avoid the swings, because each time they are caught they become more clever and the next time it may be more difficult to detect it. So those who come bounced elsewhere, may here go unnoticed or the other way around.

Noise can be made by sending complaints to internet providers of pirated websites that distribute user models here.

You could create a project, as in the job offers, where to outline the steps to be followed and exposing the progress, with an economic fund that CGT could guard, to deal with legal expenses for example.

@ acera17: what I say is the opposite, the seller is the one who sells the pirate model and the buyer who claims for lack of textures or whatever, but receives no response from the seller, (because the seller is not interested in help, just keep publishing stolen models) and also may not have opened the file, and as I downloaded from the pirate website posted here. It is one of the points mentioned at the beginning, they are all really related.

I think that having more people can be difficult, maybe it is easier to change the priorities, that is, the same people stop doing other less important things for a while, to dedicate themselves to this. It is also important that we all collaborate. What you mention about the verification steps seems like a good idea to me.

@CGPitbull You have to do things well. We can not do the same as them and less if they are the same things we intend to avoid.

Do not wait, you have to act NOW. Of course the first thing would be to cut the gangrenous limb, but the gangrene is only the consequence of an infection, if you do not clean the operating room, you will have to amputate many more limbs. If you start cooking before you have cleaned the kitchen, it is likely that diners will get intoxicated. And what do you do when your house gets dirty? since CGT is our house, keep it clean.

The strategic plans that companies develop are usually long-term and tend to have different phases. All walks start with one step and once you move, inertia helps you keep moving.

The real question is do we want to do something, or are they just good words?

To clarify concepts, this weekend I have compiled and read the applicable legislation on copyright and intellectual property. There are interesting things, such as the recommendation to create codes of conduct (Article 17 of Directive 2004/48), and associations such as collective management (Articles 57 and 58 of the Copyright Law), to defend the rights of their partners (the authors). Or the responsibility for negligence (articles 5, 8 and 9 of the Code of administrative offenses), what clarifies me, the speed with which it has acted in cases in which, the author is the one who claims, but not in this one and others Recently raised cases (here and by mail) that also greatly harm the interests of all (including CGT), but the author is lost in the night of illegal download pages.

What all those offenders do is not a punctual scam, in which it is not worth investing time, it is a continuous violation of our rights and an economic damage, which also threatens our future. Reporting is the way to enforce our rights, allows cheats to come to light and can not return (point 3.7 of the general terms of use) allows to act against the pages from where the stolen models were obtained (Article 11 of the Directive 2004/48). And it could dissuade others from publishing alien models. The penalties can be civil, administrative and even criminal, can amount in the most serious cases up to 300% of the royalties not received (for example up to $ 3,000 for a stolen model, sold 10 times, and that the original author would have sold for $ 100). There are great modelers (and CGT) affected by this problem that could easily prove his authorship in many models (because cheaters are very shameless) and are failing to make money and what is worse, our passivity allows the problem every time be more serious.

Well here I put it, ordered from smallest to largest area of ​​application.

CGT rules:
https://help.cgtrader.com/terms-of-use-and-licenses

Law on Copyright and Related Rights of the Republic of Lithuania:
https://www.e-tar.lt/portal/lt/legalAct/TAR.551F0CDE5B64

Convention on Cybercrime:
https://www.coe.int/en/web/conventions/full-list/-/conventions/rms/0900001680081561

Directive 2004/48 / EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the enforcement of intellectual property rights (OJ L 157, 30.4.2004):

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2004/48/corrigendum/2004-06-02/oj

Code of Administrative Offenses of the Republic of Lithuania:

https://e-seimas.lrs.lt/portal/legalAct/lt/TAD/b8d908c0215b11e58a4198cd62929b7a

Code of Criminal Procedure of the Republic of Lithuania:

https://e-seimas.lrs.lt/portal/legalAct/lt/TAD/TAIS.163482

Other pages of interest. Ministry of culture of the Republic of Lithuania:

http://lrkm.lrv.lt/lt/veiklos-sritys/autoriu-teises

Situation is getting really weird, Tecna has provided links were exactly the same models are published by multiple sellers. A week has passed and nothing has been done. Cgtrader should've been immediatelly suspend models in question or even whole accounts in case of several infractions and then conduct investigation internally. That is wrong, very wrong indeed.

Hi again,

Don't be mistaken - we have been working on this case for a while now.
You will most likely see the conclusion and results early tomorrow.

Best regards,
Mantas
CGT Support

And the saddest thing is, that is just one example, of the more than 70 that I have documented and sent weeks ago, in some cases with clear knowledge of the author of the model, others provided free of charge by the author, but with clear restrictions, which do not are met (only for educational use for example) in others, free models from other websites such as TS, or links to several pages of illegal downloads, (which I will not put here), where the same models are published but on fairly prior to its publication in CGT. Even cases where it makes improper use of your brand, which did not seem to impress much and I was quite surprised. I think the problem is very serious and that they do what they can, but it is not enough. Clearly, the magnitude of the matter overflows them. For this reason, I think it is essential to look for urgent solutions and that we must all collaborate.

After the research I have done these days, and the reactions (or lack of rations) of the affected parties, I have come to the conclusion that this path ends in a big wall and that it is better to dedicate to something else. That's why the black background of the web, for Black Friday, seems to me prophetic about what our future will be like.

So, seeing the passivity of the interested parties and the volume of what has not been collected, it is possible to set up a company to claim, on behalf of its real owners and in exchange for a percentage of what has been obtained, the royalties not received, be a business model with a future, in which I am sure that more would be gained than modeling.

Hi again,

6 accounts were suspended already due to a violation of CGTrader's T&C. Few more accounts are still under investigation.
@Tecna Big thanks for cooperation regarding this matter.

Best wishes,
Mantas
CGT Support

Thank you. I am sorry that you have to work so hard, but I will continue to send, at reasonable intervals, all the infractions you detect, as well documented as possible, to facilitate your work. I have to admit that it is a complex and delicate issue that requires a lot of time and effort (by everyone). And it is true that CGT is the one that shows the most respect for the artists.

I've always had this clear and that's why I only sell my models here, it's my way of thanking them. Nor do I see the need to sell in more places, because on the internet everything is a click away, it is more work and does not guarantee more sales. Customers will go where the models they like. It can also give problems with licensing agreements.

For example, I was wondering, why in the pages of free download of models, there were so many with watermarks of other 3d markets, (luckily there are no CGT), well known and licit, in which many users here may also have an account So I've been reviewing the agreements of those websites, and some are really harmful to the authors of the models, because licenses are granted to those websites, even perpetual and exclusive, that allow them to sell and transfer to third parties (for their account and without being a product incorporated). That is to say, you will not be able to claim, for something that you are granting voluntarily, when publishing your model there. I think that's how many models come to the download sites, (in a legal way?), That only want them as a claim for their real source of income, which is advertising and links to websites that are not recommended (game, sex ...) or worse things.

So, something we can all do, is to carefully review the agreements of the websites where we sell the models, to make sure that what we are doing is what we want to do.

Please, we must go one step further, and improve the early detection measures and the capacity to react, (as much as possible), also hardening the sanctions, so that the problem goes down. Thanks again.